Lay on, Macduff Wheel of Time Reread!
Today’s entry covers Chapter 36 of A Memory of Light, in which a shoe is dropped, a dream is ended, and a tipping point is reached. Like that point right when you’ve chugged up to the top of the 200-foot drop on the first hill of the roller coaster and you’re about to go over and ohhh shit.
Previous reread entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general. The index for all things specifically related to the final novel in the series, A Memory of Light, is here.
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This reread post, and all posts henceforth, contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series. If you haven’t read, continue at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Chapter 36: Unchangeable Things
What Happens
Nynaeve clings to a rock to keep herself from being dragged into the void before them, and worries about Rand, who has been standing frozen in place ever since his foot touched the darkness; Moridin is similarly motionless. She wants to try and do something, but she cannot let go of the rock, and Rand is drawing every bit of the One Power she has, though he doesn’t seem to be doing anything with it.
I am not spending the Last Battle clinging to a rock! she thought. Not the same one the whole time, at the very least.
She manages to move sideways to another stalagmite, then another, and then sees there is a woman huddled against the wall of the cave. It is Alanna, and Nynaeve then sees she has been stabbed in the gut. She realizes that Moridin must have done it so that when Alanna died, Rand as her Warder would go mad, leaving him easy prey for Moridin. Nynaeve tries to draw saidar for Healing, but Rand will not let her take any of it away from him. She gets out her herbs, though she doesn’t know if they will help.
What to do? If this woman died, Rand would lose control. That, likely, would be the end of him… and of the Last Battle.
Mat shows a group of villagers how to construct a palisade while trying to ignore the dice rolling in his head. One of them looks vaguely familiar to Mat, something about a cart, but he can’t place him. Urien passes by and cheerily urges him to win, as he has bet a skin of oosquai on it. Mat is bemused. He moves on, contemplating his preparations to defend the place he had chosen, and trying not to think it was like picking your own gravesite.
Counting everyone he had, Mat would be outnumbered four to one when those Trollocs arrived, at least according to the reports from the Fists of Heaven. It was going to be messy.
Mat stops to give some extremely green Tower Guard recruits a lesson in staff fighting. One of them, Sigmont, asks why they can’t learn the sword instead, and Mat asks if he wants to go ask the Trollocs for a few months’ extra time so he could train them to use a sword. He assures them this is the best method for the time they have, and hurries off before the Deathwatch Guard catches up with him, ending up running into Egwene with a group of Aes Sedai. Mat complains to her that the Deathwatch Guards are stalking him, and urges her to go the Aes Sedai portion of the camp, not really listening to her until:
“We’ll have to find a way to explain to Fortuona why you ran,” Egwene said as they approached the Aes Sedai quarter. Mat had placed it as far from the Seanchan as was reasonable. “The marriage is going to present a problem. I suggest that you—”
“Wait, Egwene,” Mat said. “What are you talking about?”
“You are running from the Seanchan guards,” Egwene said. “Weren’t you listening… Of course you weren’t. It is pleasant to know that, as the world crumbles, a few things are completely unchangeable. Cuendillar and Mat Cauthon.”
Mat explains that he’s hiding because Tuon wants him to “sit in judgment” over soldiers being tried for crimes. Egwene is skeptical of the idea of Mat being a judge, but still chides him for ducking his responsibilities. Gawyn is also giving him dirty looks, which Mat ignores.
Mat was not going to order men to be executed, and that was that.
He asks in a low voice whether they’ve found the Horn, and Egwene says no. Mat rants about what he went through to find the bloody thing. Egwene asks about the dagger.
“That trinket? Hardly worth anyone’s time.” He caught himself reaching to his side, to where he had once carried it. Egwene raised an eyebrow at him. “Anyway, that’s not the point. We’re going to need that bloody instrument, Egwene. We’ll need it.”
Egwene assures him they are looking. Mat asks about Perrin, and Egwene says no one has seen him; she’s assumed he was with Rand. Mat lets it go, and gets her to make him a gateway to the top of Dashar Knob, an unclimbable rock formation in the center of Merrilor where Mat plans to have his command center during the battle.
“I have never known anyone else,” Egwene said to him, “who will work so hard to avoid hard work, Matrim Cauthon.”
“You haven’t spent enough time around soldiers.”
Atop the Knob (Egwene comes with him), Mat surveys the land below, planning his defenses, and feels Rand tugging at him from the north. He thinks he will have to go to him soon. Jur Grady approaches and points out where a company of Redarms, led by Delarn, are leading some five hundred raggedy-looking people into camp through a gateway. Grady asks what the point of that had been.
I saved your life, man, Mat thought, trying to pick Delarn out of the group. And then you volunteer for this. Bloody fool. Delarn acted as if it were his fate.
Mat tells Grady to take them to where they’ll be blocking the river, but to let Delarn and his recruits do most of the defending. Grady is puzzled, but obeys. Mat says to Egwene that there will no retreat from this battle; they stand here, or fall. He also tells her that it will no be enough for them to merely survive the battle; they have to win it, and destroy the enemy. Egwene asks him how he expects to do that, considering how outnumbered they are. Mat replies that he will have to “change it all.” Another gateway lets a group of the Guard through, led by Gelen, who furiously tries to order Mat back to Tuon, but Mat stops him.
A cool, somehow familiar wind blew across him, rippling his long coat, brushing at his hat. He narrowed his eye. Rand was tugging on him.
The dice still tumbled in his head.
“They’re here,” Mat said.
“What did you say?” Egwene asked.
“They’re here.”
“The scouts—”
“The scouts are wrong,” Mat said.
He realizes the Trollocs must have marched through the night, and the Sharans will be coming in first via gateway. He orders Gelen to get the troops in position, and to warn Elayne that Mat is changing the battle plan, ignoring Egwene’s exclamation.
“This is it, Egwene,” Mat said. “Take a deep breath, a last pull on the brandy, or burn your final pinch of tabac. Have a good look at the ground before you, as it’s soon going to be covered in blood. In an hour, we’ll be in the thick of it. The Light watch over us all.”
Perrin is exhausted, slipping away; he tells himself he can’t let go yet, but he is still stuck in the wolf dream. He is numb and almost unable to move, but then he feels his hammer growing hot against his side, and the warmth seems to wake him up.
That was what Slayer had done. He had… awakened… somehow…
Perrin’s life was trickling away. Not much time left. Half within death’s embrace, he gritted his teeth, drew in a deep breath and forced himself to wake.
The silence of the wolf dream shattered.
Perrin hears shouting around him, and then a voice he knows, Master Luhhan’s, calling his name and telling him to hang on.
Commentary
And so, the last calm (sort of) before the CHAPTER OF DOOM.
Er, literally, really.
Including the shoe-droppage that I have been waiting for ever since Alanna bonded Rand against his will and I was like, well that’s going to end well, not. As I’ve said before (probably numerous times), Alanna’s had a big ol’ target painted on her forehead ever since her giant douchey move in LOC, because as far as I am concerned there was literally no other reason to have her both bond Rand (and then later refuse to release him) than for exactly a gambit like this one.
So it was all totally inevitable and stuff, and this may be why I was kind of annoyed by it. I mean, like I said, logistically Alanna was a Chekhov’s Gun that Team Jordan pretty much had no choice but to fire, so I am not harshing on them about that, exactly, but I’m just… I dunno, I dislike it when plot twists are so very clearly telegraphed that you’re just like “Oh, yeah, that” when they finally show up, instead of like “OMGWTFBBQ,” which is what they’re supposed to make you say. In My Opinion, Of Course.
Fortunately, to compensate for that we also have in this chapter the set-up for a plot twist that I totally did not see coming, namely Mat’s Hinderstap Ploy. This was so well-hidden, in fact (at least for me), that the mention of them in this chapter completely sailed over my head, and I didn’t even make the connection until the reveal later. Very nicely done.
(And wow, Delarn actually volunteered to become a chronically recurring ravening madman For The Cause? That’s commitment, man. In both senses of the word. Damn.)
Nynaeve’s POV here reminds me how sad I was that she had so little to do in AMOL. I mean, yes, technically she is helping Rand in the most important conflict in the battle, but in practice, having her spend 95% of her time (as I recall) clinging to a rock while being a One Power battery for the main dude is… underwhelming. Especially when compared to her badassedness in previous books.
And it was a little weird that Moiraine basically had no presence in that scene at all, even though we know she’s right there. This may seem a little picky on my part, but I’m just saying, have Nynaeve notice a look from her, or exchange a line of dialogue, or something. Because Moiraine has even less to do in the actual Last Battle than Nynaeve does (again, as far as I recall), so it would have been nice to at least include her in the narrative in scenes where she is actually in the room. Or cave, whatever, you know what I mean.
And as long as I’m complaining, I should probably also mention the rather marked clunkiness of Egwene’s more or less out of the blue mention here of the Shadar Logoth dagger to Mat, and his reaction to that. Which, of course, is the setup for what’s going to happen later with Fain. Which is fine, except for how we’ve had, as far as I can recall, virtually zero mentions of the dagger or its addictive qualities from any of Mat’s many, many POVs since he was separated from it in TDR… until now, eleven books later. And conveniently, right before it suddenly becomes relevant to his life again. Hrm.
Again, perhaps I am being overly picky, but in a series infamous for setting up situations multiple books before they come to fruition, by comparison this was… well, clunky.
And if I’m wrong about this I’m sure someone will tell me, but even if Mat has mentioned it before this, it obviously wasn’t in a significant enough way that I was aware that he was still longing for it. Which is the sort of thing which I feel like I really should have been aware of long before this. In my mind I equate it to being like a former drug user or alcoholic, or really any kind of reformed addict; you can be clean for years, for the rest of your life even, but that addiction is still there, a palpable presence in your life and thoughts.
I still remember the testimonial of one former alcoholic I knew, who, when asked how often he thought about having a drink, replied, “I always think about having a drink.” And he’d been sober for twenty years at that point. So if the dagger was like that for Mat (as I feel like it should have been), then he should have thought about it not just in passing, but often. But he didn’t.
*shrug* Maybe I’m interpreting it wrong. What do you think?
But other than that, Mat’s scene reminded me in part of why (a) he’s awesome and (b) I wish that the other characters could get to see into his head the way we do, so they can better realize how awesome he is. Or alternately, (c) why I wish that Mat would just articulate his reasoning already to other people, so that Egwene (for instance) would realize that his slacking off of his “responsibilities” here has an actual principled reason behind it, rather than him just running off to play or whatever.
Though I suppose we could have a debate over whether refusing to uphold the established law of the people you’ve been shanghaied into being a ruler of is a “principled” stance or not, but in this case it seems fairly cut and dried to me. Because surely even if you’re a proponent of capital punishment you could agree that killing off your soldiers on the eve of a battle where you’re outnumbered four to one is the height of idiocy anyway.
I mean, come on. Got some criminals? Put them on the front lines. There, problem almost certainly solved, without depriving your army of needed warm bodies. (Er, so to speak.) And if they are still around afterward, then fight about whether to execute them. This is not rocket science, Tuon. Sheesh.
Also, I feel like we should all stop and remember who we were when we were 22 years old, and then think about how we would feel if that 22-year-old us was put in charge of the battle that will decide the fate of the world. Just as a perspective check, for a moment.
(If you’re too young to do this mental exercise, I don’t want to know about it. And also, get off my lawn.)
Was I the only one who snickered at the drive-by Urien cameo? Just me? Okay. I’m not even sure why I found it amusing anyway.
And Perrin’s back among the waking! Hooray!
Though I kind of raised an eyebrow at the big reveal of Slayer’s secret to switching between the dream world and the real world being “he just woke up,” at the same time I can’t really think of what else his method could actually be, so maybe I should shut up. But then, everything about Slayer is destined to remain infuriatingly unexplained, apparently, so maybe I should just regard it as part and parcel of the overarching annoyance that is his entire existence and let it go.
And thus, we arrive at what is functionally, if not literally, the midpoint of AMOL. From here on out it is all endgame, kids. I hope you’ve metaphorically strapped yourselves in for it.
I’m not sure I have, but whatever, into the breach! …Next week, that is. See you there!
Thnks, Leigh
Got to love Mat
OMG ALANNA”S IN THE CAVE ALANNA’S BEEN STABBED OMG!..er, no, actually, no surprise at all. Oh well, some plot developments just can’t be surprising. The only real surprise was how nobody on Team Light saw it coming…
And…we’re off! Next comes a very short chapter that can be summed up as “fighting”. About 200 pages of it.
I don’t like the Alanna bit either. Too pat, too easy. And anyway, I don’t completely buy that Matt could be bonded against his will or that he couldn’t break it if he wanted to. Which makes me think that the Alanna bit is meant to divert our attention.
I missed the Hinderstrap people as well, and since I really liked Nynaeve and Moiraine they felt kind of short changed here, but it kind of had to be them, and the rules for this level of power usage were more or less firmly established at the Cleansing, so I think we should be impressed that she can move at all. I would have appreciated the scene to include a Moiraine who could not.
Mat’s generalship of course requires some serious suspension of disbelief but I did draw some humour from the fact that Dem could not figure out who his opponent was.
So here is the $1M question…Will you do the Last Battle Chapter in parts or will you do a HUGE REREAD Thread?? And yeah I missed the Hinderstap reference as well. Very Subtle indeed.
I so agree with you, Leigh, about the lame use of Nynaeve and Moraine. Even dialogue would’ve been good.
And Egwene continues to annoy me, in that she refuses to see growth in the TR boys, in spite of all they’ve been through. True, Mat is not forthcoming, but there are plenty of stories and rumors about his mad skillz. She never even doubts her locked in viewpoint.
The Alanna bit was awfully obvious. Not usual for WoT. Meh.
Totally missed the Hinderstap people, until it was explained somewhere later, I think?
Alanna was obvious. But it made sense, so I let it go. The criminal underuse of Nynaeve was another thing. She’s one of my favourite characters and seeing her shortchanged like that was very frustrating.
Even till the bitter end, Egwene sees so little of the growth in Mat and even Rand and Perrin. The way she simply assumes Mat is running from the Seanchan for good and begins coming up with a ploy to smooth is over is pretty insulting. Oh well. She’s at her best when slinging power around and being a beacon of hope.
An interesting point on comparing the dagger to alcoholism, Leigh. We can certainly try to rationalize using magical suppression of addiction as part of the Healing, or even magical addiction as being more akin to compulsion. But the explanation is probably less interesting.
Brandon Sanderson’s Mormon background probably leaves him with little or no direct experience with alcohol and alcoholism (depending on where his missionary work took him.)
Leigh’s own words demonstrate how difficult it is for those of us who aren’t alcoholics or addicts to understand… the term “former alcoholic” is wrong; the person she cited had been sober 20 years, yet still thinks about having a drink all the time. When it’s that easy for someone with some direct interaction with alcoholics to make that mistake, can we expect a writer who grew up in, and continues to live in, an alcohol-free environment to compare the dagger to alcoholism or drug addiction?
@3, just noticed I wrote Matt when I meant Rand. Really need an editor.
Others have and will cover my sadness with Ny, so I’ll just say “I agree.” :-(
Loving the little cameos we do get.
As Mat said:
@5, lancer: Think it’s already been established that the “Last Battle” will be more than one post.
So a better $1 million question would be – Where are the splits going to happen?
I’m rereading the chapter now an keeping track of the splits. So far I’m 80 pages, and 25 POV’s section from 20 people into it. (Damandred’s first POV).
Applauds to Harriet for slicing that thing together.
Yes Egwene completely fails to realise how much everyone else has grown and she is the only one not to apologise for, or even recognize, her own faults and mistakes. That is why she is the only one of the original gang to die, Karma is a real bitch.
I’d say that’s why Mat’s “slacking” is actually a problem – he’s supposed to be the judge (i.e. in the position to make such a ruling), not the executioner.
I think people are being a little hard on Egwene not seeing how much Mat has grown. She has no objection to him being the leader of the most important battle ever. The way she treats him is just a case of how friends treat their friends the same way they always did, regardless of how far they climb in life. It’s not like Mat treats her with the full reverence most people treat the Amrilyn either.
Personally, I am Upset at the SuperChicas in that they do not give Mat a THANK YOU for saving their Bacon! I mean they still have this juvenile sophmoric view of the guy even though he led them out of Ebou Dar, Leads an Army & Singlehandedly LED & WON THE LAST BATTLE!! Yet he still hasnt received his Props! A Major Travesty if you ask me!
I am not sure if I realized that the “five hundred raggedy-looking people” that Delarn lead through the Gateway were Hinderstapers. I know for certain that I did not realize that the members of the Band in that group Hinderstapped themselves. That was something I did not realize until the reveal later on.
I wonder if the Redarms who accompanied the three Aes Sedai (but did not leave with Mat and company) were part among the soldiers who fought at the dam.
ChoclateRob @11. Egwene recognized most of her own faults and mistakes. (See for example, her thoughts prior to the Sitting of the Hall in Tower Camp the night after the Seanchan attack.) As to recognizing faults in others, she does have a blind spot where it concerns Mat and Rand. I think she still sees them on some deeper level as two teenage Two Rivers lads. I think, however, she sees Perrin as somebody who has grown up. Maybe because she has not had the opportunity to either interact with him directly (as she has done with Rand) or gets full reports from those she trusts (Elayne & Nynaeve) regarding Mat’s actions since they were in Tear together. Even there, IIRC, Egwene did not spend much (if any) time with Perrin. He was always looking for some type of way to get him and/or Faile away from Tear.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
ragnarredbeard @@@@@ 9
All you need is to register and you will have editing capabilities on your posts.
Braid_Tug @@@@@ 10
I’m all for applauds to Harriet for more things than anyone can list, but I believe I read/heard Brandon say that he deliberately made that chapter the length it is so that we would feel the exhaustion of battle. (and stress, and anxiety for me anyway)
Re: Dagger
Mat hasn’t really been around anyone who knew about him and the dagger for a loooong time. Nynaeve and Elayne to some degree, though Elayne was on the periphery of that and Mat/Nynaeve was always confrontational.
Also, the dagger bit was brought up right after the Horn. Which, considering they were both carried by Mat/Egwene across all of Randland together, would make sense to think of together.
While I was annoyed that Nynaeve and Moraine had almost nothing to do at the Last Battle I was more annoyed about Alivia. Since her introduction we have been told she would help Rand die but to my recollection the only reference to that was that she left him clothes and money?
Any thoughts on what Verin’s letter to Alanna said? Release the bond before you die stupid?
I felt the same way about how the Alanna situation ended as most of the other posters, we knew it had to happen at some point that she would show up and be killed, and then when I read the scene, it was rather anticlimatic.
I actually felt the same way when I first read the Thom/Noal/Mat scene in the Tower of Ghenghi, I literally raced through the entire end of the book, knowing pretty much what was going to happen, and it was kind of a let-down when I finished the book the first time. I’ve finally just about caught up to Leigh’s current posts on my current re-read, and this time around I read the whole ending of that book more carefully and thoroughly, and really savored the rescue scenes and the scenes following right after, so it was definitely better the second (or third) time around for me.
Of course I totally missed the Hinderstap people reveal as well.
And I’m sure I’m part of a very large contingent of fans that really felt Nyn and Moiraine’s efforts in the cave were just not “complete”. Of all the scenes I wish I could have read, I think the lack of a detailed cave scene with them stands out the most.
If you haven’t heard or seen about it yet go to Branden Sanderson’s website he has been putting up blogs for the last month detailing his experiance writing the final three novels. It’s interesting to note that he views there as being only 4 major characters, Rand, Mat, Perrin and Egwene totally leaving out Nynaeve and Elayne so that in part explains Nynaeve’s lack of role in the final battle. It’s also possible that this is something that Jordan intended since it is likely he decided where Moirane and Nynaeve would be during the Last Battle which largely precludes them from any action at the end. Which is logical but disappointing to us fans.
Not only did I not realize who the “five hundred raggedy-looking people” were, even at the reveal it didn’t register that the band had Hinderstapped (TM Andrew) themselves! Now I’m delighted all over again!
p.s. Sorry, Leigh . . . the word is unto.
I too was not surprised by Alanna about to die at a critical point in the last battle. Blah blah blah. I hated how fain and mats relationship via the crack dagger is shoehorned in here and the last book in general. If anything Rand and Perrin have a much deeper connection to fain then mat. He has the least in my eyes because the crack dagger is solved by bk three but murders pertains family in bk four and all dagger mentions forthwith from four are Fains POV.
Leigh,
One possible way to recap the last battle is by billet points.
•they are fun to use
• they are succinct
•you can still include important details
• it would help make a complete list of deaths.
I totally missed the hinderstap reference. Even on your commentary I was confused. So very subtle. Or I was too busy speed reading AMOL to truly understand the hints and connect the Dots.
Sigh. I have to agree, sadly, that the underuse of Nynaeve and Moiraine was disappointing and upsetting. I completely understand why they had to be the ones with Rand, both being the two most powerful female channelers alive other than Egwene and Elayne who had other things to do, and being the ones Rand trusted the most other than his three women. And it was thematically appropriate that the two who originally could not get along are now united together with Rand. And having them be there also made the denouement in the Pit both more suspenseful and just plain possible–if the two women with Rand hadn’t been people Perrin cared about, he probably couldn’t have broken Lanfear’s Compulsion. And having them linked to Rand through Callandor made it so whichever women were with him would basically be One Power batteries. But none of that changes the fact that it still feels emotionally unsatisfying. We do see a look exchanged later between Nynaeve and Moiraine, from what I recall, but yeah…it would have been nice if they’d been able to speak or do something more. (I had to both laugh and cheer for Nynaeve wanting to bean Moridin with a rock. That is somehow badass, incredibly brave, and hilarious all at once.)
Still, at least Nynaeve does do something important by saving Alanna’s life just long enough. I have to admit that even after what she did, and how I was pissed at her at the time for doing it, I never wanted Alanna to die, especially not once she truly understood the pain Rand was in and genuinely wanted to help him. So I felt sorry for her here. As for her reappearance in this manner, I actually was caught by surprise, since despite her being that long-unfired gun, the manner of her departure in the previous book certainly did not say “taken by the Shadow for a trap” to me. I wonder if we will ever find out how and why she ended up at Shayol Ghul. The letter in her room seemed to imply Verin had something to do with it, perhaps one final order from Mesaana before she took her poison, but I don’t know if Verin had time to rush back to Tear to gate Alanna out of there before meeting with Mat and Egwene. And unless she could use the True Power (or does she know inverting?) she couldn’t have made a gate without anyone detecting it. So I am thinking the letter was a red herring, and it was Moridin who came for Alanna. Aside from having been told about her by Verin directly, or indirectly through Mesaana, he would feel her in his head the same as Rand does due to the link, so he could have figured out she was in Tear. (Or Weiramon or Anaiyella told him.)
I was a bit bemused by Urien’s return myself; Mat would remember him, assuming that time wasn’t lost to the dagger, because he was with the group chasing the Horn when they encountered Urien on the way to Cairhien, but otherwise it seemed rather random. On the other hand the subtle reference to Almen Bunt was very well done, I thought.
Loved the bit with Mat chastising that soldier–and also the bit with Egwene and Mat, where she completely misunderstands his reason for fleeing and tries to “help” him escape. A beautiful parallel to him doing the same with her back in Salidar, when he didn’t believe she was really Amyrlin. Even funnier though was the bit with him complaining that everyone was making fun of him for the way he was back during TGH: “Gawyn, you want a turn?” “Yes, please.” “Shut up.”
I also have to say I don’t see a problem with how the dagger was brought up; the lack of Mat having thought about it and his yearning for it before now is indeed quite the oversight, and since I doubt the decision of who got to kill Fain was something Sanderson was allowed to make, it seems that lack of foreshadowing was Jordan’s fault. But as for the dagger being brought up at all, it makes sense in context: he was complaining about how no one was giving him credit for all he did to help find the Horn; Egwene questions if his memories of the time really bear that out; and then he is the one to bring up the holes, thus naturally leading her to mention the dagger. If his addiction had just been mentioned before this, I think it would have been fine.
I didn’t catch those were the people of Hinderstap either, despite the presence of Delarn and Mat’s helpful mention that he had saved his life but “this was his fate”. Very subtly done, kudos. And while it wasn’t right to be evading responsibility, I have to sympathize with Mat at not wanting to have to judge anyone and have them end up executed–it’s a nice call back to how Rand initially felt about doing the same thing in Cairhien with Mangin, before he became too hard. And this really isn’t the time for crime and punishment.
The bit with Perrin and how he learned to leave the wolf dream may seem a bit lame and anticlimactic, but recall how after many books of agonizing and debating and worrying over losing himself to the wolf, the answer to that turned out to be just as simple, that he was never in danger because Noam chose to lose himself. So I just see this as another example of Perrin overthinking it. And apparently the readers too.
@7 Umbar: Actually, as I stated above, I didn’t find Egwene’s inability to see what was going on with Mat to be insulting, but funny. Because it is a perfect parallel to Mat not realizing she was really the Amyrlin and trying to rescue her against her will from Salidar. It’s too bad that clearly Egwene really did just jump to conclusions, rather than do this as a deliberate little dig to pay him back for that refusal to listen and believe her, because otherwise it would have been amusing to see her reflect on that in her thoughts. That Mat didn’t see the connection isn’t surprising, he never does realize when he screws up until he’s made to see it, otherwise dismissing others’ concerns and interpretations to proclaim his own innocence. I love him, but I think this tiny bit of comeuppance to him was delicious.
@13 arby64: Yes, exactly.
@14 lancer: Are you talking about when Mat saved them from the Stone way back in TDR? Because both Elayne and Nynaeve did apologize to him for how they treated him then. And they thanked him for his help in Ebou Dar, and Elayne thanked him again when he showed up with Thom and brought her the plan for the dragons. It’s just Egwene who never apologized…though she did realize she trusted Mat, and thus put him in charge of all the armies, so that says something at least.
@15 AndrewHB: You asking if those three soldiers were still with the Hinderstappers? Or whether they’d joined them and Delarn just now? If the former, they wouldn’t have been; their absence and apparent remaining behind in Hinderstap was an error that has since been corrected in new editions of TGS.
@18 tormz: No, it was a case of “help him die” as in fake his death. The clothing and money helped him do that. I agree it was not as dramatic as what a lot of us were thinking (actually killing him out of mercy as he was dying, killing him so as to kill Moridin, helping him create a fake body for the pyre), but Jordan did love to undercut our expectations.
@19 Cy: LOL! If so she clearly didn’t listen, or didn’t get a chance to do it. But that is a big question mark, yes…
When did you become an Illianer, Leigh?
Regarding Mat and the dagger, Leigh, I do believe that you are interpreting it wrongly. Not a criticism, as it is a very close thing.
The analogy to an alcoholic is, on the surface, reasonable. However, two exceptions change the relationship entirely. First, there is no such thing as a former alcoholic, as proven by his answer to your question. The “One day at a time” saw should more rightly be “One moment at a time” for many such. In contrast, with the multi-stage magical Healing given to Mat, his physical dependence upon the dagger is completely extinct. There is an unconscious remnant of the psychological bond, as evidenced by his reaction to Egwene’s comment, but the carnal “need” for the thing is gone, so he is free to ignore the issue unless he chooses to think on it. The alcholic cannot ever stop facing the problem. It is the physical craving which induces the psychological aspect of chemical addiction, and even when the mental mastery of that is complete, the body still presents its demand.
MDNY @2
Actually, not so fast. Nynaeve, Min, and Cadsuane each, at one time or another, expressed extreme concern over the connection between Rand and Alanna, and that it could be exploited to disastrous effect. But nobody was willing to stuff her in a bag and hide her somewhere. Also, Rand let her go her own way even while knowing she was a missile aimed at his brain, so how could any of the others justify turning her into a prisoner?
s’rEDIT @22
Editorial smackdown, ouch.
Regarding the Nynaeve/Moiraine absence of presence in these chapters, it reminds me that Jordan was a student of many things, and employed scores of lessons in his work, of which one clearly mirrors the admonition of the late great Walt Disney, “Always leave them wanting more”. Jordan claimed that one of his goals for this series was to have the readers never feel as though “it’s over”, to continue to have conversations about the events, what they meant, where they would lead, etc.
Props to the lonely voices suggesting that folks are being hard on Egwene for her apparent attitude toward Mat. As arby64 said @13, it’s not like Mat is treating Egwene with anything like reverence. Face it: they
grew upspent their childhood together, when Egwene was a little bossy-britches and Mat was an irresponsible hooligan. Yeah, so they talk to one another that way, because they always have – but they each have recognized the other’s position and abilities. They aren’t trying to undermine one another; they’re just keeping their sanity under extreme stress.Oh, and I’d suggest that the reason Egwene seems to treat Perrin differently than Rand and Mat is that Perrin was always the most mature of the bunch.
Re: Alanna – Well, yes, it was to be expected. Just think how much more frustrating it would have been if the gun had never been used! As for “why didn’t Team Light realize that???” – they did. It was remarked on at least once by Cadsuane and Min in ToM, so yes, Team Light was aware of the possibility. Cadsuane had done what she could to keep an eye on Alanna for exactly that reason, but they didn’t have a means to stop someone from making a TP gateway into her room and snatching her, unfortunately. What were they to do – kill her when Rand was somewhere he could be contained? There’s no way to force her to release the bond – or at least, no way that’s acceptable to anyone who wants to call themselves Team Light.
ETA: and that’s what I get for using “quick reply” – macster and Freelancer both beat me to it. :)
@24 macster I don’t mind that it wasn’t dramatic. I was just annoyed that 1) she wasn’t really mentioned one way or the other except for that one bit, and 2) I don’t really see leaving some clothes and money as helping fake his death. After all everyone, except the 3 women, figured he was dead because his real body was dead. If anything it was more along the lines of helping ‘Moridin’ escape than helping Rand ‘die’.
So, I guess I’m in the minority here, but I was completely shocked that Alanna was at Shayol Ghul, and still am not clear on how she got there. I mean, yeah, I knew she’d be used against Rand in this or a similar way. I just don’t understand how it happened. Maybe I just don’t remember part of one of the books that explained it. The last thing I remember regarding her is that she received a letter from Verin, then disappeared from the Stone without using Saidar (or if she used it, did so in an undetectable way). Did Moridin just pop into her room, shield her, and kidnap her? Was it just coincidence that it happened while she was reading Verin’s letter? Or did she deliberately leave in secret because of something in the letter, and later was captured by Moridin?
Elezar @29
When it was noted that Alanna had left the Stone of Tear, one of the female channelers (cannot recall just now) commented that they felt saidar from her room just before she disappeared, but not enough for a gateway. It’s possible she was channeling for some more mundane reason (heating tea, lighting a candle, etc.) before Moridin gated in and grabbed her. I think it fairly commonly accepted (though not empirically proven) that he kidnapped her in that way. And so, that would be how she got to Shayol Ghul, as an extra ace up Ishamael’s sleeve.
re: dagger
Uh, am I really the only one who noticed the instances in previous books where Mat unconsciously reached for/thought about the ruby dagger he no longer carried?
To me it was really old news that, while his physical need for the dagger was removed by the Healing, Mat’s psychological dependency never completely disappeared. I actually thought that was common knowledge.
re: Hinderstap
Didn’t catch on to it at all here. That made for one hell of a “Holy crap, that’s bloody genius”-moment later on.
Also, regarding Delarn: I suppose that he figured “Either we lose the Last Battle and there is no Hinderstap left that I can rave around in madman-like, or the Lord Dragon’s victory will save me.”. At least I would like to think that Rand’s triumph undid all the weakening-of-the-pattern effects.
re: Alanna
I am Jack’s complete lack of surprise.
I’m with Randalator; hoping that Rand’s victory undoes the really crappy things like Hinderstap’s time loop.
@mom; If it was Brandon or Harriet – either way, cutting that chapter together was a feat!
and why are you yellling at us? :-) all bold and everything.
Re the dagger: I wasn’t annoyed about the mention here, and saw it in th the light of Ewene seening Mat as “never changing” as @17 KalvinK pointed out.
Re Nynaeve: Yes it’s sad that she didn’t have much to do in aMoL. As Damplander (@21) mentioned, Brandon recently explained it: from the start, he knew, that he would focus the last book on the TwoRivers Youths, which doesn’t include Nynaeve. Therefore he “planned” that she wouldn’t be a focus character, and to compensate for it, he let ver be awesome in TGS and ToM.
– of course that only made us want even more from her in aMoL. “High expectations and all.
The calm before the storm, etc. Right. Have you figured out how you’re going to break Ch. 37 up? ;)
Sorry I’ve been so quiet lately; too many distractions to organize my thoughts into a decent comment (notes or not). Great post as usual, Leigh… hope you’re feeling better this week.
Alanna:
Where has she been all this time? Surely not at Shayol Ghul… though I’m rather curious whether (and how much) Verin had to do with Alanna’s disappearance; Moridin is a given, of course.
One of the fan-contest names in this chapter popped out at me on first read: “Cynd”. Does this mean the person’s name means “Last”, or “Chance”? I’m not too familiar with OT etymology nuances…
Perrin:
So he finally figured out how to do Slayer’s trick. Great.
Hinderstap:
Holy cow, but I sure didn’t twig to that in this chapter! Totally went in one eye and out the other. Clever author!
It is sad that Nynaeve had little to do, and Moir nothing at all, in not just this chapter but the book at large. I think it would have been neat even for Nyn and Moir to have a short conversation about something.
The dagger was kind of out of left field, wasn’t it? Pfft.
Urien:
*snicker*
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more…
Bzzz™.
I was disappointed in how Moiraine was very passive, also. Nynaeve has at least been important but passive before, at the Cleansing.
Sure, Alanna’s Bonding was going to be Bad, but I did not expect her at Shayol Ghul.
Egwene still treats Mat with little respect. Sure Mat wanted to “rescue” her from being a false Amyrlin, but he was motivated to save her life (again), not to be dismissive and condescending.
@24. macster: “…A beautiful parallel to him doing the same with her back in Salidar, when he didn’t believe she was really Amyrlin….” And when he realized he was wrong, in the glade where they departed to Ebou Dar, he knelt, along with his troops, removed his hat, and made obeisance to the “Mother”, giving Egwene props in front of AS and everybody. Eggie has never done anything remotely approaching that for Mat, General of the Armies, and hero many times.
also: “…I was a bit bemused by Urien’s return myself; Mat would remember him, assuming that time wasn’t lost to the dagger, because he was with the group chasing the Horn when they encountered Urien on the way to Cairhien, but otherwise it seemed rather random….” I think there is a scene in Rhuidean where Mat and Urien and others are drinking and throwing knives and betting, where Mat blindfolded as it gets really dark, throws a knife, skewers an airborne target, and wins a bunch of money and a Darkfriend bedmate that he later has to kill. But then again, maybe I’m wrong. He and Urien know each other.
@25. Skwid: Heh! I caught that one too! Funny how dropping a T works.
@27. Wetlandernw: “…Oh, and I’d suggest that the reason Egwene seems to treat Perrin differently than Rand and Mat is that Perrin was always the most mature of the bunch….” And also, that he showed her that he had far more command of TAR than she did.
Sorry Braig_Tug. Bold was a cut and paste thingy. I didn’t notice until you pointed it out. If I wanted to yell, I WOULD YELL! :-)
Dude. Chill.
JimF. @36 – “Eggie has never done anything remotely approaching that for Mat, General of the Armies, and hero many times.”
You seem to have forgotten exactly who gave Mat command of the armies.
Mat does occasionally think of the dagger or rubies (isn’t he interested in an eyepatch with rubies?). His immunity to the dagger is also foreshadowed very early (TGH?), when Fain cuts himself with the dagger and nothing special happens although he just killed that guy in Turak’s house.
Did anyone pick up the Hinderstap play? I certainly didn’t.
Eg has never given Mat is due for being an excellent battle leader. I remember our long talks back in LoC that she was around for all the public praise for Mat’s greatness in battle during FoH time but strangely brushed it off in Salidar – perhaps due to her Lanfear head injury (and anger at Mat’s own inability to grasp her leadership skills). Always a bit odd. Nice to see her coming around now, if belatedly and if still not quite getting it. Nice way to complete a longrunning theme in the books.
Really looking forward to the Neverending Story – I mean Last Battle. Go Leigh, go!
I was kind of surprised that Alanna was there if only because Rand didn’t seem to know about it till Moridin pointed it out. It seems like the warder bond should have clued him in that she was there and dying before then.
I didn’t pick up on Hinderstap either. In fact, I am not sure whether I eventually realised it on my own or whether it was on this forum that I learned about it :( Well, at least this shows that when you purposefully try to forget something- sometimes you can!
Obviously, I too was disappointed with Moiraine’s and Nyn’s sidelining. What they did was important, true, but some more screen time could’ve been given to them. I have no doubt that Brandon could’ve conjured something up. Or at least have a scene with the two women having some sort of conversation- they certainly had plenty to talk about!
As for Egwene and Mat- IMO readers who try to brush aside every single criticism other readers have towards Egs are trying to have their cakes and eat them too ;)
1- We would like to think (I certainly do) that characters in WOT are usually well rounded with various human qualities good and bad. The more we insist one character is flawless, which is what we do in practice when defending them in every single case, the more 2D cardboard they become.
2- We would like to think that Egwene is exceptionally competent Amyrlin, practically destined to be in the role for the LB- I certainly do. But there seems to be desire out there to see her having the character and innocence of a five year old girl raised by a loving family. Slight exaggeration here to make the point ;)
The fact is that to be an effective leader of the AS, especially in this period, a woman must have characteristics which taken in isolation or out of context in other circumstances would be unpleasant, at the least. Siuan and Cadsuane are up there with Egwene, though we know less of their characters.
Would we normally accuse an officer of being callous for putting young men and women, his soldiers, in a situation where they may get hurt?
IMO, Egs’ interractions with Mat and Rand are manifestations of the side of her character I pointed to above. In this, Egwene has been portrayed wonderfully consistently from the moment we first met her in TEOTW. In fact, I believe she has changed the least among the TR guys, fundamentally. Mainly her naivity, shown in the Stone of Tear, has been stripped away.
I don’t agree that the Egwene and Mat situations are directly parallel or that Egwene is no worse than her compatriots. In fact, she’s downright hypocritical. Mat and Rand are like Jewish friends of a pope. It’s all “Oh, hey. Um, congratulations on the promotion, I guess,” but don’t be expecting them to call you Holy Father and kiss your ring and ask for your blessing. The authority of the Amyrlin is meaningless to them. They conspiciously refused to bow to Siuan when leaving Fal Dara, so it’s not like this is some intransigence born of seeing their schoolmate in the stole. The Amyrlin Seat is only a big deal to Aes Sedai and their fans, of which Rand and Mat and Perrin have never been numbered, or because of her political influence, which is largely irrelevant for the guys.
Mat did not believe Egwene was the Amyrlin at first because he had no reason to. As far as anyone knew, Elaida was the rightful Amyrlin. All Mat is guilty of is being quicker on the uptake than Alviarin, in seeing what Elaida ridiculed a politically-involved Aes Sedai for not realizing: Egwene was chosen as a figurehead and an expendable sacrifice in case the rebels lost, and the rebels had no real interest in pressing the fight. He called it way before the so-smug Wondergirls really grasped how low on the totem pole they actually were. And he was worried about a friend being in a situation where she clearly did not realize the fullest extent of her danger. But even if she did, what does it matter to Mat who sits the Amyrlin Seat? How is getting the right woman in charge of a B.S. organization worth risking the lives of his friends?
Meanwhile, how many times does Egwene have to be present when someone discusses Mat’s accomplishments and skills before she actually listens? She was there when Moiraine and Rhuarc talked about the Prophecy being fulfilled in the Stone of Tear and she talked about how important Mat was. She was there when he fought the Aiel in four skirmishes and didn’t lose one, which is a better record than ANY wetlander had ever been known to achieve, and he killed their leader in hand to hand combat. She was there when Moiraine described his accomplishments after the battle. She was there when Gareth Bryne talked about his reputation, and when Talmanes expressed his loyalty. And each time, she is still shocked. When does Mat ever doubt Egwene’s ability? Her judgment and priorities, sure, but he never thinks “Oh, she’s just the town bitch and Wisdom’s toady, she couldn’t possibly have political skills.”
And Egwene has been rotten to the boys from day one. The one who knows her best, Rand, didn’t bother telling her about the Myrdraal, because he predicted her reaction.
With an Aes Sedai, a Warder and a cynical, world-weary gleeman all present and NOT calling bullshit, she refuses to believe Rand’s insistance that they are leaving because they have to, not because of some frivolous adventure. When Elyas tells Egwene he can’t teach her his power, she wants nothing to do with him anymore, refusing to even listen to his offer to shelter her and Perrin from the Trollocs, because SHE is only interested in going to Tar Valon and being an Aes Sedai, and the hell with Perrin if Darkfriends assassinate him along the way. She completely ignores everything Moiraine said about the primary mission being the protection of the three boys from the Shadow, and when Elyas offers credible help in that regard, she blows him off because it doesn’t gain her any power.
And when Rand becomes the Dragon Reborn officially, and is all in charge of stuff, Egwene is only interested in mocking and belittling him. He’s only literally the “leader of the free world” but Egwene has to make sure everyone understands that she is not impressed by his power and that SHE is no subject of his. But the Dragon Reborn is the rightful leader of EVERYONE who fights for the Light or against the Shadow. The Amyrlin Seat is only the leader of her own organization, of which Rand is automatically excluded, and technically the enemy. Yet, she expects and gets more respect than she ever gave to Rand. Why is it okay for Egwene to make snarky remarks about Rand and his swelled head (though none of the more experienced Wise Ones or Moiraine and Lan seem to think it’s a problem, and Elayne explicitly points out to her the necessity for rulers to act the way he does), but she orders Mat’s sister spanked for sticking out her tongue? If it is so important to the image of the Amyrlin that her fellow Emond’s Fielder grovel before her, despite being the most accomplished Aes Sedai since the founding of the White Tower, who is Egwene to refuse the same to the Dragon Reborn, upon whom the world depends? If Moiraine Damodred, slayer of two Forsaken, and finder of the Dragon Reborn can swear fealty to Rand, who is Egwene and her rabble of malcontents and cranks to call such an oath “ridiculous”?
By no circumstances can you equate Egwene’s behavior towards Mat and Rand with their treatment of her. When have they ever refused her aid, even when she goes about manipulating them or trying to get them to cooperate through subterfuge? But getting her to do them any favors, even when it might be in her own interest is like pulling teeth. Short of letting Mat know about a suicidally dangerous ter’angreal, I am hard pressed to recall ANYthing that Egwene does for them out of the goodness of her heart or friendship, when there was not something in it for her as well. She talks Rand up to Aes Sedai, but only to hurt Elaida. She lets Mat have some rein in Salidar, because she knows he’ll fight her too hard if she doesn’t. She tries to hide Rand from the Aes Sedai, when she has no idea that he’s special or unique, and her action is the equivalent of helping an Ebola-infected al-Quaeda operative with a suitcase nuke strapped to his back, hide from the FBI. She forgets her relationship with Rand or companionship with Perrin to go running after Aram (leaving Perrin alone among strangers), but get pissed because Rand introduced himself unwillingly to girls who think he’s cute. She can’t even bring herself to ask Rand about Traveling, making a bitchy, passive-aggressive complain, but he tells her anyway. When Rand looks interested in smoking hot women who definitely reciprocate his carnal interest, she is furious and tries to ram her best friend, who, by her own admission, has more important things to deal with, down his throat, but when he asks where Elayne is, because the peace and safety of two nations depend on it, she refuses, in a way that insults him, and is miffed that he won’t interfere with her teachers on her behalf. Bear in mind that one book before, she was appalled that he was giving orders to his soldiers, rather than asking them nicely.
This is Egwene’s view of Rand’s power and limits to his authority:
– Rand totally has the power to override the Wise One’s decisions regarding the curriculum for their student and rehabilitation schedule for their patient.
– Rand is going too far when he outlaws genocide, recreational arson, theft from peasants, and racially-motivated violence. When a Wise One asks if he’s going to follow through, Egwene is sure he can be made to see reason, and presumably, TOLERATE genocide, oppression and bigotry.
Even after Sorilea corrects her, and says that he HAS to be tough on the Aiel, she still bitches about it to Elayne, who ALSO points out that it is necessary for a ruler. Despite receiving no support whatsoever for her perspective, Egwene continutes to act as if Rand is in the wrong, and either ignores him or snarks at him, which doesn’t help his self-esteem when he is already conflicted about the demands of leadership.
Egwene is a crap friend. Period. And she was that way long before the demands of her position forced a separation between her and her friends.
I liked Egwene at the outset of these books, but in all her travels, and in all she learned, she didn’t grow very much, imho. My disappointment in Egwene stems from two things….
1. Her treatment of, and non-acknowledgement of Rands position of Ultimate power and need for support (not control), and Mat’s proven skills in battles. She lacks respect for them. They are truly her equals, in their own ways, but she doesn’t see that.
2. She traveled widely, and studied with various interesting cultures, and yet, she still drank ALL the Aes Sedai Koolaid. For example, she knows about the three oaths shortening life, and having been used as punishment in the AoL, yet she takes them anyway, and insists that they remain valid. Yes, because of how young she is, and how she was elected, perhaps she did it for political reasons, however, her conversations with Elayne and Nynaeve about the oaths, leads me to believe she still believes the party line, that they are necessary.
She united the Tower admirably, and fought to defend it in battle, but I still think she is a bit short sighted about the Tower power structure, and how it may need to change……and I she’s very self absorbed.
ValMar@43: “The more we insist one character is flawless, which is what we do in practice when defending them in every single case, the more 2D cardboard they become.” I agree….our beloved writers don’t have to be perfect, afterall. There is room for disagreement here.
DarkDoug@44: Nice parsing.
The reason Mat doesn’t put criminals on the front lines is simple: Convicted criminals are unlikely to take orders on the field, since they have no reason to obey and no hope of salvation.. they’d be a liability in a situation that is already dire enough without a lack of discipline..
@44 WOW! You stated everything that’s always bugged me about Egwene. She’s never been one of my favorites.
I agree with 46.
In war, a lot of stuff is about morale. Most of the time battles don’t end with all the other opponents dying them and there. There’s something like a 1:5 dead:injured ratio in most battles and if you look at history most of them end when one of the armies either retreats or routs, not with the absolute death of opponents. This comes later, when the routing army is wiped out by the army that has kept its shit together (either that or an orderly surrender comes about).
So, having prisioners sentenced to death in the front-line is not wise, military-wise. These guys are going to break, since they don’t have much to live for and they don’t have discipline, since they have committed crimes. And seeing routing units will lower the morale of other units, which could be disastrous in the final battle. Fake routs were very difficult to do because of the discipline and training it required, and seeing a true rout happen could do much harm to the other unit’s morale.
Ryamano @49
Your point is correct and well stated. Not good trying to use known deserters, murderers, or other malcontents as front line fodder, it will be counterproductive to the battle every time, for the reasons you enumerate. The term decimate comes from recognition that approximately 10% of one’s forces on the field have fallen (dead or wounded beyond capacity to continue), and was often considered the point at which withdrawal was the only wise option.
(If you’re too young to do this mental exercise, I don’t want to know about it. And also, get off my lawn.) Leigh, that was literally laugh out loud funny. If you could have managed to project waving a cane at them too… OMG! Actually on my current rererererererere etc read, I have been interested in just how young most of our characters are…what 15-25yo? with obvious exceptions like Lan, Moiraine, Tom….
Tektonica
Although we know about the Oath Rod and Oaths being part of the AOL penal system, I do not think Egwene does. She does know they shorten life.
Although I think DarkDoug went a little bit too far in his criticism of Egwene, I have always felt that her Moments of Awesome don’t outweigh her failures, especially in the way she treats Rand, Mat and even Perrin, at least until he totally schools her in the fight against the BA in TAR.
Yes, Elayne has her Moments of Stupid to contrast to her Moments of Awesome and if we couldn’t see inside Nynaeve’s head (where she is totally hilarious!), her early actions would be totally reprehensible. But they both grew and matured throughout the series while in my view Egwene did very little gowing or maturing. Everything was always about her and what she wanted to do and become, while Elayne and Nynaeve thought more about others as the series continued.
For me, just about the only unconflicting character is Loial (and the rest of the Randland Ogier: we don’t really know much about the Seanchan Gardeners). The Ogier marriage customs are a bit much but even the ones who argued for opening the Book of Translation did it to make sure everyone truly understood what not opening it meant. I definitely heart me all the Ogier!
Freelancer@51
I believe decimate came from the old Roman practice of killing one tenth (by lottery) of troops that had deserted or otherwise disgraced themselves in battle.
Regarding using criminals on the front lines: I agree that it’s a bad idea with the exception perhaps of a soldier who had run afoul of the code of conduct and would be anxious to clear his name even at the cost of his life in a suicidal mission. An example might be someone like Mangin had he committed his crime around the time of the LB. Obviously deserters and cowards wouldn’t be appropriate.
@24 – macster One nitpick, Moiraine might have once been one of the most powerful channelers alive, but after her rescue she stated that her power had been reduced to the point where she might not have even been accepted into the White Tower for training. She’s there with Nynaeve simply because Rand trusts her completely to do what’s needed, regardless of the cost. Unfortunately for us (the readers) what’s needed is limited to her standing there hanging on to a big chunk of rock and watching the show. Would have liked to see one more Moment of Awesome from her, but it’s not like the book was lacking in those overall. :)
Nick31,
Moiraine has an Angreal that is almost powerful enough to be a sa’angreal, it is extremely likely that she is pulling in Saidar through that, making her more powerful than she was before she lost most of her power. So still more powerful than almost all other females.
@56 Nick31 – One comment about Moiraine, that’s right that the Foxes/Snakes sucked up most of her ability to channel, however, Lanfear’s angreal bracelet was part of the “bargain” that Mat made to obtain her release, and with it she is still more powerful than almost all other channels except for a very few.
EDIT: And I see Samadai got there before me!
Mat has been noticing rubies in particular ever since the dagger, be it in crossbows as in Rhuidean or else, at least in Ebou Dar I recall him contemplating rubies. After the healing he thought he would have liked to have kept the ruby, but that they’d likely say that was tainted too.
So, I gather that while his connection to the dagger itself was broken, thus addiction healed as he wouldn’t have been able to get rid of the dagger without dying of it otherwise, perhaps some speck remained as regards the ruby. That would have been what attracted him to the dagger in the first place.
I haven’t been able to decide for myself whether Mat had become slowly and slightly more suspicious and sombre as the series went on, though in the Gathering Storm he was certainly not his normal happy self. Could be either way, I gather, a subtle development and easily missed if so.
Well we pretty well did for Egwene “bossy britches” al Vere in this segment. I just finished my reread of her initiation venture through the Tar Valon ter’angreal. There, it (all three vignettes) is all about her deserting Rand for the beckon of Aes Sedai. She cried her eyes out on Nynaeve’s skirts (along with Elayne, whose initiation passage I don’t believe we ever get to hear about; and one I would really like to see). Then, it appears, she promptly forgot about it all.
No matter how badly the AS have used Rand (the box; bonding without permission; Cadsuane for crying out loud); no matter Rand’s accomplishments; no matter that Rand IS The Dragon Reborn and LTT in some sense the ELDEST Aes Sedai; no matter anything else. She belittles, badgers, stirs and plots against, anything Rand does (as well as for Perrin and Mat).
I came to dislike her in the trek with Perrin and Elyas, but that abated somewhat in the tGH episode in Shienar. But my dislike accelerated after that; she maybe is a good AS, but if I were her “friend”, I wouldn’t turn my back.
Brandon’s thoughts on Perrin and Egwene in AMoL: http://brandonsanderson.com/the-wheel-of-time-retrospective-a-memory-of-light-perrin-and-egwene/
Highly relevant to this discussion. (The whole series is awesome, but this one is particularly on point.)
Just a few points I have.
* Agreed an Alana and the bond.
* Agreed on the dagger
* I too missed the Hinderstap reference
* I think that people have been a bit hard an Egwene. My appreciation of her has actually been the opposite of many here: I couldn’t stand her at the begining of the series but came to appreciate her more as the series progressed and she seemed to move away from ‘spoiled bossy-pants’ (Well, at least somewhat). Part of the problem is that her relationship to the Superboys (along with Ny’s) is one of the ongoing “gimmics” of WOT. It’s always a Men-are-from-Mars, Women-are-from-Venus type of byplay going on with them where one is always mistaken or misconstrues something about the other’s actions or words. Mat is a natural target of this with his roguish character and capacity to even misconstrue is own motivations to himself most of the time. As time has gone one, Egwene has become more of the focal point for this “gimmick” as she has moved into a position of political power and authority, while not having a lot of direct contact with the SuperBoys in the latter half of the series. Not to mention she was the first romantic interest for Rand, the main character of the story; so it is natural that she take on this role from an early stage as well.
I almost wished for Rand to be killed through his bond to Alanna here as a payback for being really dumb and nonchalant when she disappeared in ToM and he was all “Whatever, I am not hiding anymore”, as if finding him was the only way she could be used against him.
And to be fair to Egwene, Mat keeps running away from responsibility throughout the series, hell, even with the Last battle starting he was off to Ebou Dar, trying to put some distance between himself and the Trollocs.
It seems to me that the Instructor would be somewhat disappointed in many of his students.
It is certainly not my intention to pile on Egwene here, but to make several points accurately, it becomes necessary to focus on one of her weaker aspects maturity-wise. From the beginning, it was rather apparent (or perhaps not so apparent for some, hence the mildly exaggerated treatment in the “Ravens” prologue of From the Two Rivers) that Egwene’s strongest personality trait was the need to be the very best at whatever she was doing. This, in and of itself, is an admirable trait. It is when the methods and choices employed to accomplish such an end are less than laudable, that one is vulnerable to harsh criticism. And there is no doubt that Egwene does in fact engage in unseemly steps to “one-up” those she subconsciously considers to be competitors for top status, whether they be Nynaeve, Aviendha, Perrin, Rand, Mat, Elaida, Romanda, Sheriam, or even Gareth Bryne.
However, in the overarching scheme of things, these ploys have negligible impact on the reality of events, are little more than a mosquito buzz of annoyance compared to some of the foibles enacted by other more popular characters. But here is where the first point is approached.
Robert Jordan conjured, nurtured, and raised these characters in his mind, and on paper, each with a purpose to be attained by the end of the story. But he also desired the merely ink-and-paper words to be cloaked in flesh-and-blood conceptual structures, giving them as much virtual life as possible. Clearly, he succeeded at this to a degree barely conceived by most authors, else we would not waste the time or energy to discuss their personalities with such vigor. I submit that this is likely the source of the ever-expanding nature of the epic, resulting in fourteen volumes*.
Were all readers of this story to experience identical connections with all or most of the characters, it would prove them lacking in any depth, and in fact would show Jordan’s work to have been unsuccessful at manufacturing “real” individuals. There is little question that readers’ judgements of the various characters is influenced by their own environment, experiences, and sources (or lack thereof) of sympathetic understanding of each character’s mindset and behavior. It always strikes me as strange that another reader could have few positive feelings towards Rand, yet there are such. Some have almost nothing but loathing for Tuon, while others adore her.
So one of Jordan’s master strokes of this saga was to infuse each character with reasonable, valid, human faults, no two sets alike, acting as filters through which each treats the events they experience.
Atop this there are several layers of more homogenous group biases, the most profound case being that of gender. For those with matching chromosomes, the generalized concept is that women rule, men drool. And vice versa. Additional systemic filters exist based on nationality, status, rank, etc. Finally, and very profoundly, whether one has access to the One Power.
So, a person such as Cadsuane, who is:
~ Female
~ From Far Madding
~ Very strong-willed
~ A channeler of the highest echelon of strength (at the point of introduction)
~ A Green Ajah Aes Sedai
~ Exceptionally mature in physical years
~ Extremely experienced in the world
will surprise no attentive reader for having a personality which can be considered overbearing to most around her.
Likewise, Egwene’s makeup is easily understood, and her motivations for choices are the consistently demonstrated product of the sum of those parts.
The other point to be made is this. Why focus on that, and foment a tempest in a teapot over Egwene’s imperfect treatment of those she should cherish as friends? As is so often put forward, nobody is perfect, and she could hardly be other than she is, just as is true for Mat, Nynaeve, Thom, Gawyn, even Lan.
A more important judgement to make, regarding the crucial matters, is if a particular character’s aims are intent upon the success of Team Light. Do they believe that they are making the best possible decisions for arriving at, and ending victorious in, the Last Battle? I am not here asking if a reader sees the decisions as best, but if the character, within the constraints of their knowledge and personality, does so.
And with that question as a guide, ask yourself if your willingness to excuse the poor behaviors of your favorite character, or to accuse the same behaviors of your least favorite, is reasonable or necessary, or if it is perhaps a case of projection.
If we are going to extend suspension of disbelief enough to debate the relative merits of the actions of these “people”, then we might as well be consistent and offer the forgiveness that we would wish for ourselves, for those less than perfectly honorable choices we make.
Just saying…
* 15 including New Spring
:::slow clap:::
Well said.
Exactly that. Thank you.
Freelancer @64. Excellent post.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
@64, great post.
General: Little sad that this thread is becoming less active. (it seems)
Not many Hunny’s being racked up.
Glad there will be a new post up soon, concerned that perhaps I slew this one. That said, I’ve no remorse, and will likely do so again…
@64. Freelancer: I cannot believe you write this: “…So one of Jordan’s master strokes of this saga was to infuse each character with reasonable, valid, human faults, no two sets alike, acting as filters through which each treats the events they experience…” and this “…Were all readers of this story to experience identical connections with all or most of the characters, it would prove them lacking in any depth, and in fact would show Jordan’s work to have been unsuccessful at manufacturing “real” individuals….”
And then say this: “…Likewise, Egwene’s makeup is easily understood, and her motivations for choices are the consistently demonstrated product of the sum of those parts.
The other point to be made is this. Why focus on that, and foment a tempest in a teapot over Egwene’s imperfect treatment of those she should cherish as friends?…”
The point is, those of us “tempesters” LIKE Nynaeve and admire her (or pick any of another bunch of names) and we DON’T LIKE or even much respect Egwene, just as though these were real people that we know and deal with. In that regard, Jordan was brilliantly successful.
JimF,
Well, you seem to be suggesting that one part of those comments was inconsistent with another part, but then you conclude with very much the same statement I make that readers have different reactions to different characters.
But ok, let’s walk a bit further down the road that is Egwene’s character. Yes, she has a blind spot or two in certain aspects of how she sees and deals with those she ought to know best. Well, the two Duopotamians who have the highest popularity among most folks here have gigantic blind spots about themselves, as well as how they perceive others. But we’re talking about Egwene. If she wasn’t who she was, including those “weaknesses”, she wouldn’t also have the singlemended drive which allowed many events to go as they did:
~ Recognized that the boys were planning to skip town following the Winternight attack, and forced her way into the group
~ Protected Rand from the search at Fal Dara, which would have put him in Liandrin’s hands, and that could easily have been game over. (Not coincidentally, it is during this event when Moiraine foreshadows Egwene’s rise to Amyrlin)
~ Agreed to go with Liandrin to save Rand. Yes, it turned out to be a trap, but an Egwene as heartless as recently portrayed in comments wouldn’t have gone.
~ Be trusted by Verin with the Dream ter’angreal (it can be well argued that Verin, given her situation, is more reliant on wise discernment regarding who she can and cannot trust than any character in the entire story)
~ Initiated the decision for her, Nynaeve and Elayne to leave the Tower and go to Tear. Why? To find the Black Ajah sisters, and to protect Rand
~ Defied Aes Sedai demands and agreed to use saidar in battle for Rand at Cairhien
~ After learning of the Tower split and the rebel Aes Sedai at Salidar, determined to find a way to get them to support Rand
~ In spite of her own fear of saidin, took the risk of allowing Rand to “hide” her behind Illusion, in the same room where he met with Galina and the Tower embassy
~ Ignores Wise One warnings and enters Tal’aran’rhiod in the flesh to travel quickly to Salidar
~ Defies both Romanda and Lelaine and takes charge of the meeting with the Andoran and Murandian nobles, managing a deft political maneuver to avoid conflict and gain trust for the Salidar Aes Sedai. And, as an aside, opens the novice book to any woman who wishes to become an initiate
I’ll stop there, though that is hardly half the list of such actions which could be cited. It could be said that many of these actions were purely selfish and for nothing but personal gain, but any close look at her internal POV shows that she very often is thinking about the larger picture, and what is best for eventually facing the Last Battle, what is best for supporting and protecting Rand as the Dragon Reborn. Yes, she consistently believes that she is the one best suited to accomplish those aims. Yes, that belief goes too far when she insists on opposing Rand regarding his plan. But it turns out that neither his idea nor hers alone is correct, and without Egwene’s opposition, Rand might have made a horrible error.
The bottom line here, is that those character traits which make Egwene seem unlikeable are exactly what made it possible for her to achieve unique and important accomplishments that most definitely advanced the objectives of the Light. Other characters’ shortcomings are glossed over for exactly the same reasons, that results outweighed any faults, so Egwene deserves the same.
For me, what matters first is whether a character is acting on the belief that they are doing what’s correct and right for them and for all, given what they know. That makes them good. It doesn’t make them perfect.
Typical Nynaeve, she needs to do something, even if it’s just changing rocks. And that turns out fo be a Good Thing
Moiraine on the other hand has reached the moment her whole life has been preparation for. My guess is she’s totally focused on Rand and barely aware of the rock she’s clinging to or Nynaeve, much less Alanna
I further guess that Alanna’s note was a warning about the attack on Kandor and she was captured during the defense.
Mat is awesome, especially his final words: “This is it, Egwene, take a deep breath, a last pull on the brandy, or burn your final pinch of tabac. Have a good look at the ground before you, as it’s soon going to be covered in blood. In an hour, we’ll be in the thick of it. The Light watch over us all.”